(0:00)Is the church a hospital?
If you leave church because you were hurt, you never understood what church was about. The church is a hospital. I don't agree. The church is a hospital. We're all patients. Have you not hurt anybody? Did you leave yourself? [music] Unfiltered. Welcome to another episode of PF Unfiltered. My name is Kenneth Uni Binde and I have with me today Esther Griffin. How are you doing today, Esther? Really good. That's such a good question. You doing Why? Why is it a good question? It's just No, because Tunday doesn't really ask that. So, like the fact that he can straight Oh, sorry. Shout out to Tunday. We miss you. Yeah, today. I'm sorry. What did you say? You said we miss you. These two of you are just I don't miss him. And today I don't miss you. Today I miss you. Technically, I can't. It's my first actually. Let's Let's continue. [laughter] Let's continue. Let's continue.
(0:54)Going viral for the right reasons
And then we have PF with us. Hey, what's up? The one and the only. The one that's going viral. Viral. Yeah. Can you imagine? Your church is going viral. The church that you lead is going viral. The church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes. That church is going viral. New Covenant House denomination is going. Ah, sorry. Non-denominational. Non-denominational church called New Get. But we're in the denomination of Jesus Christ. You people are just talking no offense. I don't even remember that stuff [laughter] before I say anymore. But yeah, how do how how does that feel? We had um Adelaide um she she visited for I think from California and um she made a video about her experience at New Covenant House. So I saw that you know I had so many people send me that video. It started in the morning our producer sends it to me. Have you seen this? And I'm like and I looked at it. I was like oh okay yeah I I didn't watch it. Yeah. And then someone else sent it to me and then I watched the first and it was it was long. Yes. Yes. And I was like, "Okay, this is this is nice." [laughter] I mean, it was it was nice. It was a very It was a good video. It was a very nice um review particularly as you know, we don't I don't know her. Yeah. I'm not even sure if I met her on the day she came. I don't remember. um you know hearing somebody talk about what you do from outside was very it was a very interesting perspective right to see how you are seen it's not often that people will tell you what they what they think right you know but here's somebody who goes out of her way to talk about her experience at the church and that was very very it was very very um gratifying [clears throat] on a on a certain level it was really really gratif It's fine. And it wasn't sponsored. And that that's the thing that really, like I said, I was just like, but you know, one thing that amused me, a lot of people in the comments were like, this is sponsored John, right? Like they couldn't believe somebody could say something so sincerely nice about other people and not be, you know, there's a cat somewhere. But it wasn't sponsored. Like I said, you know, I don't know her. I don't I don't remember even meeting her, you know, um, on the Sunday in question. It was just it was just nice. I tons of people sent it to me. Yeah. Then the the funny part was my younger
(3:21)When your dad sees your content
brother sent it to my father. He didn't even send it to you first. He sent it to my father and I woke up in the morning with a note from my father. Mhm. You know, talking about how he was um he was so happy and so inspired by it. And and that was nice. That was really nice. You know, um it's it's good to hear those kinds of things sometimes. One of the things about pastor in Well, we tell you that all the time. So, wait. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. We do. Tunday literally says the fastest growing church in Dallas, and I always clown him for saying that, but clearly he's a prophet. Prophecy. Clearly, he's a prophet. How much is going to pay you for that? [laughter] Because So, so this is the thing, right? One of the things about about about the work, right? And and I guess it's it's just in life, you hear more of the negative than the positive. Exactly. Right. You hear all the places where you are falling short. People are very quick to complain when you fall short. You know, but to hear somebody talk about how from the parking lot. Yeah. Right. And and these are things that we do without really thinking, oh, it's going to look good. We're doing it because we think, okay, it's a distance. No, we complain. We be complaining. Yeah. That how many We only have You don't have any How many golf carts do you have? Your golf carts don't have air conditioning, right? It doesn't have fan. Doesn't have fan. you know, with mists. You know, it's it's I mean, honestly, I I I I am grateful for the for the for the um for the for the perspective that she expressed. And I know that it is God because you see me, I'm on the inside and I can see the back end. And the sausage making is ugly. You know, when you're eating the sausage, you don't know how they made it. Me, I know how they made the sausage. It does not look like the sausage. Trust me, [laughter] it's a it's an interesting experience hearing an outsider's perspective. Yeah. And the perspective, you know, we ap you you yourself, you know the things that are wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. To that point, why do you feel like um I guess it's the topic that we're talking about today, you know, why do you feel like people are leaving the church? Like young people are like moving away from the church, right?
(5:32)Why young people are actually leaving
Because I think that's one of the that's one of the topics that she talked about that they're young. She talked about But I was talking about African immigrants specifically and and it's an it's actually very it's an interesting topic because when you think about it a lot of the immigrants coming to America from Africa, the young ones are coming from very religious backgrounds and very religious experiences. Right. Exactly. They're in church all the time back in their um immigrant origins. Right. those who came from the west coast of Africa, Nigeria for example, not the only country that is represented in our church these days, but we're in church all the time, all the time. And then we get to America, right? Mhm. Uh um and it's a different experience. So her shock at seeing so many um African immigrants in one church. Yeah. For me, it was a little amusing, but it's something I've heard expressed before. [clears throat] Right. Many people come to the church and they are shocked at how we don't have a, you know, people talk about how, you know, they have a multi-generational church and it's problematic speaking to the old people, the young people, the in between people. No, we only have one generation in our church. They're all young. [laughter] I'm the oldest person in church. I'm 55. By the way, she call me Baba. [laughter] We have grandparents, too. We have a lot of grandparents. We just celebrated now. Now, we started having grandparents because that's because we have kids. Because the kids the kids are now having kids and they're bringing over I'm talking about the oldest other than me and the grandparents and they're not that many grandparents. Talking about maybe four, five grandparents, right? Mhm. They're in their 40s. Early 40s. Yeah, that's true. And they're the first set. Yeah. Right. I started we started the church when I turned 40. 5 days after my uh 5 days before my 40th birthday. Mhm. Pastor Dami was in his late 20s, right? Uh Er, very early 30s. Langry late 20s. Feul late 20s. Si 20s to 20s. They were kids. Jeez. In fact, they were they were so when they all showed up, right? Bali, they they they you know, young people, you know how young people can be. They they were not very We are young. Hey, you were [laughter] you were your but they weren't they didn't come across as being the most responsible the most you know um spiritual [laughter] they were Jesus friendly born again adjacent. Wow. Right. No seriously. And and I I my the denomination that I grew up in was very um conservative. Right. So when they showed up, I was like, uhoh, who sent these ones? [laughter] Cuz I don't know if it is God, you know. So my instinct was to not walk with them. Yeah. You know, but I got a revelation, you know. I got a word from God that these are the people I have sent to you. Yeah. So walk with them. And that was hard for me. They didn't know the Bible. They weren't very interested. You know, they wanted they were more interested in having a good time. Mhm. It was really tough. It was really, really tough. But to the glory of God, you know, that was God's plan. Yeah. So, in spite of my own reservations, my own concerns, you know, um it became a home for young people. Yeah. So, I say we're not a young church anymore because like I said, all our leadership are finally in their 40s. Yeah. Finally in their 40s. Yeah. I'm the oldest person in the church. Yeah. Can you imagine? So I think back to the other question that I was trying I wanted to ask but like we kind of pivoted but like we're talking about today like church hurt right while you know why young people are leaving the church and I do want to ask why do you feel like overall in the country as a whole in in our generation why do you think that you know there's an exodus of I think the message that the church preaches is no longer relevant to young people it's not relevant to young people is it not that it's not relevant or they're not irrelevant. It's not relevant to them. And I explain what I mean. Mhm. The message of Christ Mhm. is relevant to every generation, to every geographical in every geographical location, to every ethnic group, right? Across the ages, it will always be relevant. Yeah. However, the church does not always preach Christ, right? We use Christ as a lead so to speak into other things that the young folks find extremely un unnecessary so to speak. Let know what I mean. For example, the prosperity message.
(10:24)The problem with the prosperity gospel
Mhm. Right. Which is which is if you come to Jesus, you will have a lot of money. Mhm. Young people want to be rich too. They want to be rich, but they are not as um hung up on being rich in the way that we are hung up on being rich. Young people these days, right? Sometimes there's a struggle between rich and popular. Wow. Right. So maybe if the church started to say if you come to Christ, you'll become popular. Popular, we might get the young people because young people are more interested in popularity sometimes than in money. Yeah. Right. They're more interested in having a million followers than sometimes converting those followers into money. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, the message of Christ is forever relevant. Mhm. But that message of come to Christ, don't smoke, don't drink, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, and Christ will give you this. For them, it's like, I can get all of those things without not doing this, not doing that. I can even do more. of those things right and get everything that you are saying that Christ is going to give me right so that's not relevant to them it's like I don't need to live an aesthetic lifestyle to be popular in fact [clears throat] the more out there I am the more the more you know I will get what I want you know so they they found other ways to get what the church is promising them but there's no way to get to God except through Christ so if we promise them that and we teach them that I think we'll find that there's there's there's a there's the natural pool.
(11:58)Popularity vs Money: A new generation
Mhm. Right. He says, "If I am lifted up, I'll draw men unto me." Yeah. Not by age. Mhm. Right. I think that's a that's the major thing. The message is not the right message anymore. Right. Particularly those kids of immigrant descent who grew up in struggle. Right. Right. And now they are living in comfort. Right. [sighs and gasps] Why am I going to do night vigil? Mhm. from back to back to back fast for half of the year. Yeah. When my colleagues are eating all of these things, doing all of this terrible thing, dropping it like it's like it's hot, you know, smoking the herbs and they are happy. You know how we say that only Christians are happy, are truly happy. Only Christian marriages are successful. We see marriages that are successful that are not Christians. That's true. That's true. Um to that point, I think like in terms of like YouTube Christianity or like people watching church online and them using that as like the main source of like their their fellowship.
(13:08)The danger of 'convenience' faith
One of the things that I don't think we fully appreciate is the layer of convenience, right? When when the pandemic happened, we the church, the leadership of the church had to stand up and validate doing church at home. Yeah. Right. And for one year, we talked about how God is there with you. For one year, we said it emphatically. We said it often. God is there with you. Can't you feel his presence? Now the pandemic is over. Has God suddenly left me? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So, so that culture, right, of not getting out of your PJs Mhm. to go to church. Well, even driving, I mean, we're in Texas, right? So the drives here are like 30 minutes plus. 40 minutes an hour. And it's not just the drive, it's the prep. Yeah, it's the prep to do the drive and the drive back. So for some folks is like, man, I'll just watch it at home. But the problem is this, right? And this is what everybody forgets. That one year of pandemic was an aberration. Mhm. Right. That is not the way God intended for it to be for us to fellowship remotely. And we felt the impact of that. Yes. And that is why, let me tell you what happened. A lot of people left the faith after the pandemic. And the reason why they left the faith is because they were isolated. Yeah. They were watching church on TV, but they were not part of church. Exactly. And then watching other things that even if they were getting it, something was coming after to come in. Even apart from that, even even if they weren't watching anything bad, right? But let me give you an example. When you are with believers on a regular basis, right, the devil whispers something to you, you're in an environment where it will be corrected. Mhm. Right. Where it will be challenged. Mhm. Where it will be discredited. Yeah. Right. But you're at home and you watch service for 1 hour and after that 1 hour you shut the screen. Mhm. That's the end. There's no interaction with anything again spiritual. Right. In fact, there's no interaction with any human being. Yeah. Right. So now it's just you and your thoughts and that could be dangerous. Right. And that's what happened. So a lot of people entered into this thing they called deconstructing. Yeah. Right. And deconstruction is really can be good but it can also be very bad. But it made the construction very fashionable. Yeah. Right. This the internet YouTube made the construction fashionable. to people who don't have any education about the faith. Yeah. People who have a little education about the faith. Everybody got on social media and started talking. Yeah. And everything they said, like I said, if you say it emphatically, if you say it earnestly, if you say it forcefully, somebody's going to believe you. Mhm. Even if you don't know what you are saying, right? And I saw a lot of that. People would come on social media and say something in a nice way and all of a sudden they've got a million views. Next thing I'm hearing it from people who you would think would know better. And it's like nobody doing any research, no nothing. Everybody just coming online just why there's no time for research. And the person who said it said it with authority. Exactly. So they must be right. And they have a million views. I have a question. What are the dangers of like internet like Christianity or like internet gospel clips? Yeah. cuz we know that people take those things and we run they run with it. You don't get context for a lot of things. You don't get context. And at New Covenant House, if I say something on on the pulpit, you have an opportunity at some point to say that thing you said. Mhm. Mhm. Right. When somebody says something on social media, that's it. That's it. They say it and they walk away. Yeah. I said something while they doing Bible study. Yeah. And Kenneth was the one who said uh Pastor Fei that passage and I was like oh you know what you're right you remember. Yep. Yep. I was like who is this boy said and just be harassing me. But on on online you say it and that's it. Nobody can challenge you. So you can literally say anything anything and then just be put out there into the world. Like I said just say it with authority. Say it like you believe it. Right. And somebody is going to run with it like it is the truth. And there's a lot of stuff there guys that if you go and check scripture, oh my god, you'll be shocked at how far Yeah. it is from scripture and there have been um things that I have seen on social media that have been really helpful. Yeah. Right. But there's a discernment that is required sometimes. Right. Somebody says something and like I said, the amount of people who agree with what they're saying does not validate what they're saying. Right. Exactly. Doesn't make it right. Paul talked about the buran Christians were more honorable because everything they heard they went and they checked. Mhm. The number of views does not mean you should not check. Yeah. If all these people agree with it, it must be right. No. That's madness. Is reading their Bible. Yes. Yes. You know, there was one guy who one day that was and this one was on, you know, I'm a pastor, so I get irritated when people throw doubts at pastors, you know. Um, somebody was saying something about how, you know, pastors shouldn't be paid, you know, um, that Paul was a tent maker. We've talked about that before. If you read the Bible, says right there, [laughter] you will understand what Paul was talking about and you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free. That's also in the Bible, by the way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but the guy just said it and he said it nicely and he had some nice diagrams and everybody was like, "Yeah, why should I like anyway?" [screaming] So, I'm curious in terms of like one of our producers was telling us earlier how um essentially uh she was a part of a Bible study and some of her friends that she thought were questionable um invited her to a Bible study that they were running themselves. M um and it was almost like self-led and somebody was teaching opposed to them actually taking time maybe to like dissect what they're reading and try to get clarity from it. And she had a bit of like reservation about it. And so what do you think about like these like um self-proclaimed pastors and um teachers teachers in a sense? Honestly, I I I think one has to be careful. Yeah. Because there's a lot of deception out there. The devil is actively working to deceive Christians. Right. I think that anything you hear that has to do with the word of God is easily verifiable through the Bible. Mhm. Right. So if you were to go to a Bible study Mhm. Right. and somebody comes stands up without any qualification, without any experience and say something, I would expect that if you're sincere about your faith that you go and confirm that what they're saying is the truth. Right. Right. But there's a song that I used to hear growing up by a great musician called Fella [laughter] and he said in the country of the blind, it is the oneeyed man that is the king. Right? There's a problem sometimes when the blind try to lead the blind, right? And you have to be able to discern that the people who are speaking right. Yes, there's enthusiasm. You want to share the word. You want to discuss the word. But to what extent do you know that which you are discussing? Enthusiasm does not make up for knowledge. The Bible talks about people who have zeal. Zeal. Yeah. But no knowledge. True. You can have a lot of zeal and have no knowledge. You can read the Bible one verse and you don't know the context. M you don't know. The Bible talks about how every scripture has its mate. Yeah. You don't know what the rest of the Bible says, right? And you want to run off on a tangent with one line. Yeah. Right. You can get into trouble. That is why the Bible says that the body of Christ grows by what each member supplies. Yeah. There is something about being a part of the body of Christ that is critical for your growth. In fact, Jesus Christ said, the Bible says when Jesus Christ was leaving, he gave gifts to the church. And these gifts are teachers, apostles, prophets, uh, evangelist, evangelists, and pastors, right? Somebody being able to pastor does not mean that they're a pastor, and being able to teach does not mean you are a teacher, right? There is an office. Mhm. Right. That is a gift. So on a random day I can teach you a song. Yeah. Right. You are not a singer sir. I'm just saying [laughter] she couldn't resist. Shots fired. One zero Esther. Oh no. [laughter] You know all the all this season you have know myself. You and Tun together. Bas. Well, okay. See, Kenneth did not join bad gang. Yet yet. [laughter] On a random day, you can teach something. Yeah. But to teach every day. Mhm. Right. To teach I I I preach almost every Sunday. There 52 weeks in a year. Mhm. I preach at least 40 weeks in a year. Right. Yeah. We have some of the guys who who preach and they need a 3 month lead time. Mhm. to prepare a sermon. And I get it. That's not the office in which they stand. I don't have I have three days. Yeah. What am I saying? I have Sunday. You preach on Sunday. Then you got Bible study on Wednesday. Wednesday. Right. And in between Wednesday and Sunday, there is a wedding. Yeah. There's two or three events that you're going to speak at. Yeah. Right. And then there's Sunday, another Sunday. And Sunday can come really quick, man. There's a a grace that is not you. Mhm. Yeah. To sit in that office. Right. So, there's a lot of stuff that people say and do that has no foundation in scripture. Even the rejection of the five-fold ministry, right? I don't need a pastor. Mhm. God said, "I want to bless you. I'm going to give you a pastor." I think there's something key in what you said about like not forsaking the fellowship of the brethren and like how important it is to not do internet church. like the key like it's key to be in a body to be in a community you know what so so internet church right is is the is the and I'm going to get flack for this is the evolution right the next step of what we have been doing when you go to church and you sit down and you listen to some people sing Mhm. right and you listen to somebody preach Mhm. You don't do anything. You're a spectator. Okay. Yeah. Why can I not go and do that my spectating at home? At home. Right. Yeah. So, as I say, it's the next is inevitable. Right. Right. But that is not the plan. The plan is that all of us are working together, growing together, doing life together. Yeah. You can't be a spectator to that. Yeah. And as long as we are doing this spectator church, right? Service is like a concert. It is. Right. As long as that is all that church, the church experience is a concert. I can watch the concert at home. So I'm not really blaming the folks at home. Yeah. Right. The model is problematic. Right. We need to have church where everybody is involved. And the way to do that is to have the church break down into smaller units. Right. The Bible says in Acts of apostles how they went from house to house. Yeah. Right. that that you can't be a spectator. Small groups. Okay. Small groups. Let's let's say we pivot into small groups, right? Because we're doing that now and we've seen the fruit of that. And a lot of churches are doing that and they're doing it very well. Very well. Yes. I want to talk about people that grew up in those small groups and smaller churches and now they've left the church because they've been hurt, right? They've given their hearts to being in smaller groups to doing life with people and then now it's like I'm done with this church thing. I'm deacon. They used the epidemic as a pillar. Our producers are going to be pissed, but I'm going to say this. Let me tell you. If you leave church because you were hurt, you never understood what church was about. I I The church is a hospital. I don't agree. The church is a hospital. We're all patients. Have you not hurt anybody? Did you leave yourself? So much is given, much is required, though. What What does that mean? That means that you've been given a platform. You've been given a responsibility. handle the responsibility well. Are you not human again? No, you are. But people don't handle and if you're human, will you not make mistakes? Will you not hurt people? But then people are not. Why do we go to church and expect everybody to be perfect except us? It's not perfect. It's not perfection. But that's what we expect though. What is imperfection? Imperfection is that I say something out of turn. Yes. Imperfection is I do something I shouldn't do. That's imperfection. And and imperfection causes pain. Now, I'm not saying that to excuse bad behavior, but bad behavior is inevitable where you have human beings. So, when we go to church and we're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe a Christian did that. Are you not a Christian? Do you not do stuff that you should not do?" Yeah. You're a villain in somebody's story. Exactly. But we act like we are angels all the time and we expect everybody except us. When you mess up, you're like, "Ah, God's grace is sufficient for me." When someone else mess up, uh, you call yourself a Christian. So, so church hurt, right, is real. People really get hurt. And there's some terrible things. I've left the church because somebody hurt me, right? There's some terrible things that people do in church and use church as a cover for, right? But they do that everywhere. Yeah. Right. People come to church and get abused. Mhm. But people are abused in their families, in their homes. Yeah. Right. Do we abandon the home? Do we vilify the home? No, we make the home safe. Yeah. And so we try and make church safe. That's good. Right. But we can't abandon church because of the problems. We don't abandon families because of problems. And when we abandon families, you know what we do? We go and build a new family. Yeah. Because every human being needs family. Then guess what? You live long enough, you go back to the family to now rebuild what it is that you left. Some people, some people don't go back. Some people don't go back. The hurt is so real and so deep and so painful that they can't go back. But they create another family. Yeah, because there's a need inherent in every human being for for relationship, right? Relationships at every level is going to bring pain at some point or the other. Sometimes you will be the cause of the pain. Sometimes you'll be the receiver of the pain, right? But human nature always draws us back to relationships. So we don't abandon relationships. We try and make relationships better. I don't think we abandon the church. We try and make the church better. M when we abandon the church, we are abandoning the living expression of God in our life in the sense that the Bible says this is the body of Christ. Say that [clears throat] again. This is the body of Christ. When we abandon church, we abandon the living expression of God in our lives. We abandoning the body of Christ. How can you abandon the body of Christ? How can you say you love God but you despise his body? It's it's it's extremely That was good, wasn't it? That's that's that's that's like that's so contradictory on multiple levels, right? Yeah. Yes. The body is problematic because the body is made up of people who are being sanctified, who are being redeemed, who are on their way to perfection, right? I say church is a hospital. We are all patients. So all of us. So outside of the the earth, right, the things that could happen. I know people leave church sometimes just because it's it just isn't how do I put it? Like it's Yeah. It's like outdated to them like the worship they go in and they are still singing hymns. Ah there's nothing no shots but like they're still standing up to like so so hymns. The music is slow. But but that's the thing though. Let me tell you kind of music. Let me tell the kind of music I like. Let me tell can I say the kind of music I like. Tell us the kind of music I like right are songs that are you would call sad songs. Right. I lament lamentations. I I like I like [laughter] I like songs that are I like Hebrew songs. What is that? A song in a in a minor key. Right. Our producers know what I'm talking about. Okay. Right. I like songs that are that are soulful. Right. That evoke, you know. Mhm. That that touch your soul. Yes. I don't like all these noisy songs. I don't like See, this is the thing where I don't I don't like them. Yeah. But I don't go to church because of that. Yeah. The church that I pastor, they don't sing the songs I like. That's why you always standing like that. That's not why. By the way, one of our producers is she leads worship. Yeah. I don't that the reason why I am like that is because that is habit. I grew up Yeah, that's true. I've told the story before. Yes, you have. So, it's not No, no, no, no. If you leave church, if you leave church because of worship, right? That's fine. Our worship is outdated, right? That's fine. You don't connect with it. That's fine. But you don't leave church. You leave that congregation, right? And go to a congregation that has music. There's there's a congregation with any every kind of music. Ooh, this is good. There's congregations that do rea. There's that do afro beat. There's congressions that do hymns. There's that do R&B. There's old time gospel. There's jazz. There's comp. There's every type of music. Yeah. Apparently, ah, there is though. There's the Caribbean churches there worship the congalles churches have those in this one and they waste in the middle of worship worship whichever one but but the thing is this church is the expression of the body of Christ if you leave it because you don't like the harmon the harmonies and the rhythms were you ever in it that's I would have left this church long time ago ah I always complain about our worship team I always complain I always complain flat H you know it's even better. But you know the but you know the irony of what you just said that people came to that church because of that worship thing that you found flat. Exactly. I kid you not. I still serve. I love you guys. It used to be a problem cuz say I'm only here because of the worship. I'm like ah me that I'm preaching the sermon. What am I? You know mince meat. What am I? You know uh uh some people complain about the sermons. It's always about witches and wizards right? Yeah. Honestly, again, right, the problem is not the sermon, right? The the the sermon about witches and witches and wizards are a part of somebody's reality. Yes. And there's somebody in that space who is, you know, who needs to hear that I am safe, right, from the things that scare me, namely witches and wizards, right? I'm covered by the blood of Jesus. Amen. I've been redeemed from the curse of the law. Amen. There's no enchantment against Jacob. There's no divination against Israel. Amen. without a cause shall fly around like a sparrow finding nowhere to patch. Exactly. Right. Some people need to hear that on a regular Yeah. Because it speaks to their fear. Yeah. Now, you don't need to hear that. Cuz your witches and your wizards are only Yeah. cell phones. Yeah. Right. Whatever. Go to a church where they talk about purpose and vision and leadership. Mhm. But stay in the body of Christ. Mhm. What do you think about going to multiple churches or like so for instance, right? Like I go to NCH like this is my home. This is where I serve. This is where I give my time. Um my tithes, all the things, right? But during the week like So where where do you where are you committed to? Where do you serve? Where do you where do you serve in all of these churches? I know you I'm talking about this person who's going to multiple churches. Where do you serve? I don't serve in nothing. Who's looking after you? Who's who's praying for you? Out of all of these pastors, who do you listen to other than sermons? I don't you know I don't know the idea is I don't understand the person you said people who go church who who belong to multiple churches. Yeah. Oh so let me tell you an example of that right. So when I was in the process of leaving my old church and I I want to say this because I had the opportunity to say it. What actually broke the camel's back for me to leave that church was I had walked I had really had a really rough week. I had walked in church and then the usher was like why are you late to church? Mhm. Pause. Did you call me during the week to even see how my life that that might have been an opportunity for you to say, "Man, I've had a rough week." It you know why? But it pissed me off because he he had been doing that before. Oh, you're not on time. You're not on time. So So So you see you see again, right? You see, you're the problem in this story. No, you're the villain in this story to me, right? Because if you had a spirit of humility, right? And somebody says, "Why are you always late?" Right? You can be like, you know what? I've had a rough week. No, but it was his approach. If how was what was wrong with his approach? Wait, the PSC this PS with me that I just wanted to test one zero one zero. We're about to equalize. But okay, so but to that point, I was under that church and I was going to a new church and I was given ties to both churches and I was being shepherd by both both leaders, right? And I was serving at both. So I would serve in the morning at one and then come for Bible study to the other and then serve on whatever team that I was serving on. So So when they asked you why you always late, it was because you're coming from another church. That's why it was bothering you. Do you see one? Do you see the problem here? You see the problem that that is a kind of um I I feel like sometimes there's a transition. Yeah. From one place to the other. I would encourage you right even though I can't find a particular verse of scripture that says um [clears throat] um um be a part of only one denomination but it's problematic on multiple levels right it makes it comes across as doubleminded right and double-mindedness brings instability you know when I was leaving the pastor was like a seed that's not rooted he even used I said I said you don't know I'm a true follower of Jesus I'm always going to be Yeah. Planted. Yeah. Yeah. It's important that I think I I've been a Christian for a minute, right? And one of the things that I've realized is that you can be in the wrong congregation. Yes. Right. But you have to be in the church. You don't have to stay in the wrong congregation because congregation that I think one of the reason why God allows such a diversity is because we're very different people. Yeah. Right. But the body of Christ is not optional. Yeah. Mhm. You can do conservative hymns. Mhm. Melo. You can do Gen Z, hyper energy. Yeah. Right. But be in the church and make sure that the church that you are the tap that you're drinking from is giving you good water. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's great. Right. That that's I think the most important thing. Whether you go to New Covenant House or you go to Social Dallas, I really don't care as long as you can testify, right? That you know what, I am receiving the word of God. And if you're watching from home and you have reduced Christianity to a spectator spot, it's only a matter of time before you find out that you are not really um walking and as strong in your faith as you should be. Right? There's something about when we gather as believers. It doesn't matter whether we're five or whether we're a thousand or 2,000, but that gathering coming under that corporate anointing, there's something about the power of God that is manifest in those gatherings that you're not going to experience if you intentionally and willfully decide, you know what, I don't need it. Yeah. It's one thing if you're unable to be there. Mhm. But to say I don't need that gathering, right? Yeah. That's problematic. But you know, it is where we are. I see. I see. And I mean just giving it everything we've spoken about like what then like what should churches do like if I can put it that way to one maybe mitigate the idea of people leaving in terms of like we're talking accountability when someone does something actually serious in their congregation or just any sort of system that could protect people especially I think young people from some of this hurt I I think I think we have to understand that there are limitations to what we can do to protect people while we are on this side of eternity. Right. It's just the reality of it. Yeah. And I think we need to understand that the things the way of God is not the way of the world. And that's hard for us. Yeah. When we use the word accountability, many times we're talking about retribution, right? We're talking elaborate. We're talking about punishment, we're talking about consequences. Mhm. Okay. We're talking about judgment. Okay. Holding people accountable is not necessarily about correction. It's about making them pay a price for their for their deeds. And people typically say it. Yes. Typically, right? There's a place for correcting people, for rebuking people. The Bible talks about it extensively. And the church should never shy away from rebuking, from correcting, right? Even from putting people out where it is required. We've seen examples of it in scripture, right? The model is scripture. No matter what the world thinks of it, the model is scripture. No matter how much the world says, well, the model is scripture. Forgiveness is not a is is not a concept that the world appreciates, tolerates. Mhm. Right. That is the cornerstone of the church. That means that people are going to do things and they are going to be forgiven for it. The world is going to have a hard time with that. And they use a nice word to try and negate that word, accountability. Mhm. Accountability is many times, not all the times, used, right, as a replacement for forgiveness. Forgiveness. Yeah. Right. We don't want people forgiving. We want them held accountable except when it's us. Yeah. When it's us, we want forgiveness and we want grace. But when it's someone else, right? No, no, no, no, no. They must be held accountable, right? And I struggle with that sometimes, right? Because the very essence of the church is that we are all forgiven. But if we had to use that word in the right meaning of to have some systems in place to have some accountability to make sure that people are not falling away. How do we do that? We follow the word and the word says when somebody does wrong right it should be brought to the attention of the people who are in authority and it prescribes how they should deal with it. Yeah. Right. The problem is this. The people in authority these days are not free to follow the word. M they can't follow the word because if they follow the word they will be vilified. They'll be dragged. So we have to go go to extraordinary means to please the world. We don't want to see our brothers and sisters restored. We want to see them punished and banished. Yeah. Right. So if somebody did something wrong Mhm. Uh a guy uh um or a girl gets pregnant. Mhm. Right. There are some churches where they want you to to trash them. Yeah, I I'm indifferent as whether to trash them or not. I don't think you should trash anybody. The language of trashing is wrong. I don't you shouldn't trash anybody, but I think there should be a level of accountability that what you What is the What's Okay, I love this topic. What's the accountability there? Accountability that what that do they know that what they did was wrong? Do they they don't know? Who knows? Who knows? How would they know? We don't know that really. Listen, I know somebody that did something very wrong and they didn't find anything wrong with what they did. They almost was like using Bugatt to be like or prior to like, okay, I did what I did and Okay. So, so they were told, so somebody tells them that what you did was wrong. Mhm. Right. Can you force them to believe that what they did was armed? No. But then bringing them in front of the church and it's like maybe not bringing them in front of church. I think there are better ways to do I'm not a pastor. Listen, that's why I don't lead nobody. Okay. I'm just here to host that and ask questions. But there should be a better way. In my in my in all my years of pastoring, I've met people who've made terrible mistakes. Yeah. Right. Of varying degrees. I've made mistakes of varying degrees. Same. We've we've made mistakes as well. One thing that I have found that has helped people who have made mistakes, right, is that how they are handled either establish them in the mistake and they continue making the mistake. Yeah. Or they turn around. Mhm. Jesus Christ loved us into transform, loved us into repentance, we have to love people into repentance, right? The woman caught in the in the bed of adultery is a classic classic, right? And and we all read that story. Yeah. And we all read it and just ignore it. He he caught they caught the woman and there's no dispute as to what she was doing. Right. Some people will be like, "Where's the man?" That's not the point, right? The point is they caught the woman and the woman is symbolic of all of us, male and female. I'm sorry. I'm about to say she was too slow. She ain't moving. [laughter] Wow. Wow. Esther, I don't even know what to say to you men. But anyway, she got caught. Yeah. Right. And she was brought to Jesus. Yes. And the people who wanted to stone her were right. That is what the law prescribed. Yeah. Right. And Jesus said to to to them, "Let him that is without sin castifer stone." Mhm. That's one thing that we've forgotten. We're very quick at to throw stones. When we ourselves, our sin, he passed the person away with the stone. Yeah. Yeah. Even the Bible says that love, the love of God brings repentance. Brings people to repentance. Yeah. So he said to the woman, "Thy sins are forgiven." Mhm. Right. Mhm. I do not condemn you. Mhm. Go and sin no more. Yeah. [clears throat] He loved her first. He loved her first, right? And sometimes we've forgotten we've forgotten the power of love. Mhm. That's my problem. Yeah. We've forgotten the power of love. And we we think more of the power of retribution. And there is power in retribution, but there's also power in love. And we have to be discerning as to when to love and when to punish. But our instinct these days is punish first. And that that that that h that's a problem. Yeah. until we're the ones in that shoe. We talk about punishing people and holding people accountable as if we ourselves, right? Will never fall short. Yeah. When we fall short, what do we want to happen to us? We want grace. We want mercy, right? Yeah. To that point, we just want to encourage the people. Honestly, folks, church is, you know, when um Hagar was being maltreated by Abraham, not Abraham, by Sarah. Sarah. And she ran away with her son. Mhm. And an angel appeared to and say, "Go back." Yeah. I have commanded your blessings there. There are blessings that God has prepared for you in church. Right? I'm not saying in that not necessarily in that particular congregation that you have been but in the body of Christ there's a blessing there for you. So if you have reason to leave the particular congregation that you attend, that's fine. But don't turn your back on the body of Christ, that's the problem, right? We tend to think of the body of Christ as a monolithic entity. No, there there's diversity of expressions through the body of Christ. Find a true expression of the body, right? And be a part of it. Yeah. There's a blessing that God has commanded for you there. Yeah. And if you're ever in need, we are a church, new covenant house. We're here to help. We're we're here to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Join us. Um I never understand that hands and feet of Jesus. What what what is the feet of Jesus? I know some people say that. What does that mean? Share like before you share like a what does it mean? It it it means we we are the Put it in the comments. Okay. representation of here and now. So why don't we say the heart and hands? Why we say the hand and feet? The hand and feet. What does he do with his feet? He walks with them. I see. Okay. I I just, you know, we say a lot of things in the church. I don't understand. Yeah. We walk. We are the hands and feet of Jesus. We walk with people. We do life with people. If you're ever in need, we help people. We are Is that what you guys are trying to just walk to? No. No. We owe them by the hands. We walk with them. What? Where are we walking to with them? To church. There you go. [laughter] No, we have golf cart. We are not walking to church. Hey, there you see the problem now. You see that that analogy does not stand with golf carts. [laughter] We are the wheels and steering wheel of Jesus. Anyways, like, comment, subscribe. Um, share guys if this episode was good and you enjoyed it. Share the video. Um, thank you guys for listening. Thank you guys for watching. We'll see you guys next time. You hands are feet of Jesus. [laughter] Unfiltered. [music]